Blindfold Test: John Clayton & Rufus Reid

Interview, From the Magazine, John Clayton, Rufus Reid

By Frank Alkyer I Jul. 31, 2024

“I figured you’d get this one,” laughed John Clayton, left, after Rufus Reid guessed Billy Childs. “This one’s a little soft pitch.”
(Photo: Frank Alkyer)

When the International Society of Jazz Arrangers and Composers symposium hit Nashville in May, one of the most anticipated sessions of the weekend happened to be a live Blindfold Test where bassist/composer Rufus Reid and bassist/composer John Clayton gave each other the test, only the second time that two artists have Blindfolded each other. The first? At the ISJAC symposium in Texas two years prior where Ryan Truesdell and Jim McNeely engaged in a historic “Double Blindfold” published in two parts in DownBeat (November 2022 and December 2022 issues). Rufus and John pondered, chatted, giggled and seemed to take a degree of glee in stumping each other in a lively event attended by a room full of composers and arrangers. It was a glorious insiders’ listening (and guessing) session that ran as two parts in the July and September 2024 issues of DownBeat. The test started with Rufus presenting his first tune for John.

Ahmad Jamal

“Wave” (The Awakening, Impulse, 1970) Jamal, piano; Jamil Nasser, bass; Frank Gant, drums.

John: I think it’s Ahmad Jamal.

Rufus: Yeeees. That’s the easy one! [laughter]

John: The bass sound of the recording makes me think it’s John Heard. Couldn’t tell the vocabulary. The drummer was using those kind of bamboo sticks. I couldn’t hear any of his telltale giveaways. An educated guess is that it might be, I’m going to say Lewis Nash, but I’m at a loss.

Rufus: I’m so happy to hear that. [laughter] Actually, it’s Jamil Nasser and Frank Gant. It’s from an album called Awakening and I had to go buy another LP because I wore it out. It’s a trio that was doing so many different kinds of things. Jamil Nassar was very kind to me the first time I heard him play. He said, “You need to go to New York.” And I said, “I may go there one day … .” And he said, “You know there’s a big barrell and it’s full, fresh from the cow, but the cream always goes to the top no matter how big the vat is.” It gave me the impetus to keep going.

John: I had a chance to play with Frank Gant, but on my wish list, which I was never able to check off, was Ahmad Jamal.

Rufus: Me, too.

John: I knew him, but I never had a chance to play with him. Sonny Rollins was also on that list; he’s not playing anymore. Ahmad Jamal!

Count Basie

“Counter Block” (Breakfast Dance And BBQ, Roulette, 1959) Thad Jones, arranger and composer.

Rufus: Ah, wow. Is that Magic?

John: No.

Rufus: The Chief?

John: [nods]

Rufus: Count Basie.

John: So, who do you think wrote the composition and arrangement?

Rufus: Frank Wess.

John: Close. It was one of your former employers. [laughter]

Rufus: Well, Frank Wess.

John: One more. [laughter]

Rufus: Thad. [crowd applauds]

John: That piece is called “Counter Block” and I think it might be one of the first compositions and arrangements of Thad’s that gave a preview of where he was going with his own band. And, as you know, you were so blessed to play with Thad Jones and hearing all these colors.

Rufus: What was interesting, I was close with Frank Wess and Frank Foster as well. I knew Thad was in the band at one point. Of course, I always heard the story that Thad, he extended the band a little more than the Chief wanted it to be extended. [laughter]

John: I understand that this was one of the songs that extended the band in a way that even Basie liked.

Bobby Hutcherson

“My Joy” (Oblique, Blue Note, 1979, recorded in 1967) Bobby Hutcherson, vibes; Herbie Hancock, piano; Albert Stinson, bass, Joe Chambers, drums.

John: Whew! OK, educated guesses. I heard some chops in there that reminded me of Eddie Gomez. And because of that, the vibes could be Gary Burton. I don’t think it was Bobby Hutcherson.

Rufus: It was Bobby.

John: It was Bobby?

Rufus: [devilish smile]

John: I knew it was Bobby! [audience busts out laughing] So, if it’s Bobby, then not Eddie Gomez.

Rufus: No.

John: But who had that dark bottom sound like that and those kind of chops? I’d say Richard Davis, but it was almost too tame at the end to be Richard.

Rufus: True.

John: Scott LaFaro?

Rufus: No. [pauses and smiles] It’s a, it’s a bit unfair. [laughter]

John: That’s not surprising! [audience howls]

Rufus: Albert Stinson.

John: I never heard of Albert Stinson

Rufus: Well, unfortunately, he died really too young. He and Bobby, they had too much fun with the drugs. And Bobby lived many years after that, but Albert didn’t. And it’s tragic because he did some recordings with [pauses to remember, an audience member calls out Claire Fischer’s name] Claire Fischer.

Billy Childs

“The Path Among The Trees” (Autumn: In Moving Pictures, ArtistShare, 2010) Childs, composer.

Rufus: [almost immediately] I love this tune. Billy Childs. I saw this band live in New York with harp, string quartet, acoustic guitar and saxophone. Amazing. Billy Childs. Check it out.

John: I figured you’d get this one. This one’s a little soft pitch. [laughter]

Cecil McBee

“Tight Squeeze” (Unspoken, Palmetto, 1997) McBee, composer, bass; Randall Connors, alto saxophone; James Zollar, trumpet; David Berkman, piano; Matt Wilson, drums.

John: I heard this smart ensemble, and stylistically, it was hard for me to get a grasp of who it was. I guess I wasn’t hearing enough of the composer’s, the arranger’s voice, to get a hold. So it was full-on, beautiful sounds and everything. Modern. But the bass player … [Clayton looks at Reid, who cracks a sly smile as the audience chuckles] You’re so mean! The bass player was taking it out, too, so I was trying to narrow it down to figure out who it is.

Rufus: Old.

John: Old? Richard [Davis].

Rufus: Not that old.

John: You got me!

Rufus: Cecil McBee. And this is Cecil’s composition.

Quincy Jones

“Hummin’” (Gula Matari, A&M, 1970) Jones, arranger; Nat Adderley, composer; Major Holley, bass and voice solo.

Rufus: Mule.

John: That was a soft pitch, too … to show you that I love you!

Rufus: Mule is the nickname for Major Holley. Wow. Was that Quincy’s? I hadn’t heard that in a long time. I had to wait until it opened up. Major Holley. What a sound, and he played tuba as well.

John: I love that not only did he swing in his playing, but he could take out his bow and he would sing the octave he was playing on the bass. So, it’s that sound that goes really low.

Dwike Mitchell/Willie Ruff

“Gypsy In My Soul” (Strayhorn: A Mitchell-Ruff Interpretation, Mainstream; 50th anniversary reissue/Kepler, 1969) Mitchell, piano; Ruff, bass.

John: Is that George Shearing?

Rufus: No. [smiles]

John: Whew! This, man, that’s amazing! It’s so close to Oscar Peterson, but it’s not! So close to Ray Brown, but it’s not! OK, I thought Phineas Newborn, but I never heard Phineas play that close to Oscar. Then for a minute I thought it was O.P. with Sam Jones, but that didn’t happen until late. This sounds like it was done in the ’50s, early ’60s.

Rufus: Can I give you a clue? He also plays French horn.

John: Willie Ruff? That’s Willie Ruff?

Rufus: With Dwike Mitchell.

John: Ugh! [audience laughs] Mind blown, right here!

Rufus: When I heard it, I thought, “Ah!” This really surprised me, too, because you don’t really hear him play like that.

Hubert Laws

“Morning Star” (Morning Star, CTI, 1972) Don Sebesky, arranger.

Rufus: [almost immediately] Hubert Laws! Beautiful song, too. I forget the name of the song.

John: “Morning Star.”

Rufus: “Morning Star,” yeah. Who’s the arranger?

John: It will come to you.

Rufus: Yeah, I’ve got his book. I can see it in front of me.

John: Yes! [long pause as Reid tries to figure it out]

Frank Alkyer: If you want to phone a friend, we’ll allow it. [laughter]

John: East Coast.

Rufus: His book is about that thick. [holds up his fingers] And I refer to it all the time.

Alkyer: I think it’s time to throw it out to the crowd.

Audience: [in unison] Don Sebesky.

Oliver Jones

“I Love You” (Northern Summit, Justin Time, 1990) Jones, piano, composer; Herb Ellis, guitar; Red Mitchell, bass.

John: I didn’t get the piano player. I heard Herb Ellis’ vocabulary and sound. And the thing that gave Red Mitchell away was he did some leap on the bass and you can’t cover that much real estate the way he went “Wheeeet.” [makes a sound of sliding on the fretboard] He tuned his bass in fifths instead of fourths so he could draw up stuff that normal bass players can’t do or are challenged to do.

Maria Schneider

“Don’t Be Evil” (Data Lords, ArtistShare 2020) Schneider, composer.

Rufus: [looking puzzled] No idea. Is it a European composer?

John: Nope. This person pretty much represents the gold standard. And I think the reason why it’s a challenge for us older dudes to pinpoint is because so many people are influenced by this person nowadays, writing-wise.

Rufus: I have no idea.

John: Who is it, everybody?

Audience: [in unison] Maria Schneider.

Rufus: [throws up his hands in disgust at not getting it] Is it Data Lords?

John: Yes. [audience laughs as Rufus shakes his head]

Rufus: I’m surprised that I didn’t think of her, but I know that album. She stretched herself because she was so disenchanted with big data and people who are not doing things on our behalf. Wow! I need to pull that back out. [laughter all around] DB

The “Blindfold Test” is a listening test that challenges the featured artist to discuss and identify the music and musicians who performed on selected recordings. The artist is then asked to rate each tune using a 5-star system. No information is given to the artist prior to the test.